Big Bins / Binoscope

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Kawx4d
Post subject: Big Bins / Binoscope
Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2017 2:58 pm
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There is a thread on CN that was recently resurrected on which bino view would contain more stars. Originally it was 10x42 vs 15x50. However the thread evolved into more of what size would render the richest possible field. Glenn LeDrew was heavily involved in the thread with a lot math & physics explanations and he ultimately came away with 80-125mm using wide-field EPs that gave a large AFOV (preferably 80*+ if possible). Nice informative read.

Jason, since we often talk of the elusive binoscope, I thought this might interest you in particular. It's a an interesting thread for everyone, but I'll tell you, it makes me highly consider the new APM 100s and 125s and using at least Morpheus or Delos EPs. Of course this also makes me want to revisit the idea of the TEC 140 binoscope. :shock: But to save a little dough I bet a pair of Skywatcher 120 Pro EDs would work great as well.

Given our prior discussion about You, me, & Erik tending toward using lower mag these days, and using instruments that are fairly quick and easy to setup I'm really thinking about something like this on a nice tracking mount. Probably would tend toward the APM integrated units so I don't have to fork out a ton of money, my right arm and left leg just for the Matsumoto bino back.

CN thread:

http://www.cloudynights.com/topic/48967 ... ore-stars/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Chopin
Post subject: Re: Big Bins / Binoscope
Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2017 9:06 pm
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Thanks for the link, Kerry! I have been digging up some random, older CN threads regarding ATM binoscopes recently. I had come across one of Mr. Bill's projects and there was a reference to Glenn's data of 5" being the maximum aperture for largest number of visible stars, but didn't know where that came from. After reading his mathematical break down it actually makes perfect sense.

I'm still struggling to decide what I want to do. A binoscope is certainly in my eventual future, but I don't know if I want a small refractor type, like the new APM 70 and 82mm versions, or build my own smallish 6" newt bino. I am really attracted to the 70mm, mounted on a CF tripod - would make a super grab-n-go instrument. But a 6" f5 binoscope with 2" focusers might be visually mind-blowing. If someone made 5" mirrors it would be even better. But honestly I could do a 6" project for very little using a pair of GSO mirrors. As it stands I have several designs rolling around in this melon. Okay, so it's just an excuse to build another scope! :lol:

I think those APM 120 ED bins look insane. Would love one. I think you will be hard pressed to find a better bino for absolute all around everything viewing. I'm actually starting to give up on the idea of Matsumotos. Everything I read suggest they are a beeotch to keep aligned in real world use. I know me, and I'd start to get pissy about that...really fast.

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Erik
Post subject: Re: Big Bins / Binoscope
Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2017 9:22 pm
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Binoscope are so cool. But I don't know if I would get much use out of one. They don't seem very practical for frequent use unless they're very small aperture or if it's a permanent situation in an observatory. Or maybe I'm just lazy! :lol:

I love the idea of a big binoscope though, especially a DIY one. Thanks for the link. Been awhile since I've visited CN. :cool:

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Kawx4d
Post subject: Re: Big Bins / Binoscope
Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2017 11:14 am
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Jason, I agree about the alignment issues. I get piced aif quickly myself when mechanicals fail. I want to spend time observing not collimating. I think that's why I'd decide to stick with the integrated bins like the APM.

The 6" Newt bino would be cool, although I think it would take some getting used to facing the opposite direction. But with 2" EPs it should give some incredible views.

Erik, part of the reason I never pulled the trigger was I was never sure how much I'd use them. However I'm at a point where I think they could be my most used instrument. If I were under dark skies and had a place to permanently setup the 12.5, then probably not, but here for home use I could see them out more often than not.

Spring obviously would not see a lot of use since it's galaxy season, but summer and winter surely would see them setup most nights. I'd love to do a DIY with some decent but inexpensive refractors, but again it's the mechanical part that would concern me.

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Oh, yeah. The Stifmeister's coming back to Grand Harbor. Deck the halls. Bye-bye, Great Falls. Wipe my a$$ and lick my ba!!s It's Stifler time, baby. Whoo-hoo-hoo. Whoo-hoo-hoo. ~Steve Stifler-American Pie 2 :lol: :lol: :lol:


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Chopin
Post subject: Re: Big Bins / Binoscope
Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2017 3:57 pm
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Kawx4d wrote:
The 6" Newt bino would be cool, although I think it would take some getting used to facing the opposite direction. But with 2" EPs it should give some incredible views.
Yes, I understand that is the typical newt bino orientation, but I have an idea to go against the grain on this one. Part of the advantage of the short fl of a small, fast mirror is a short tube. I would actually set the focuser up in a traditional 90º orientation. I estimate that the distance from the rear cell to the axis of the eyepieces could be squelched down to almost 2 feet. So, even when pointed at horizon that should allow for enough room to view from the rear of the scope. Yeah, I'd be bent over a bit, but how often do I actually view at horizon? Okay, that was rhetorical, but I'm starting to think...over the course of an entire year, I'm pretty sure only M6 and M7 get my attention for viewing at that angle. Viewing at zenith would of course be ideal.

The other consideration is IPD adjustability. But I've just about decided to eliminate this feature because I will likely be the only one ever using the scope, just like all my other scopes. There is an awesome thread in CN from a very unique asymmetric bino build that has my attention. I would use a similar concept of asymmetry and apply this to mirror setup.

Making my own 5" binoscope

Of course, a pair of frac lenses would be even better, but I think everyone here knows that even a 5" achromat doublet will cost 5-6x more than an equivalently sized mirror.

Kawx4d also said wrote:
I'd love to do a DIY with some decent but inexpensive refractors, but again it's the mechanical part that would concern me.
Yup...box-bino! :smile:

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Kawx4d
Post subject: Re: Big Bins / Binoscope
Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 8:54 am
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Quite amazing the designs people come up with for keeping cost low. I have about as much creativity as a brick, so this kind of thing always impresses me. Curious, were the objectives offset to keep down the box size, or for a 3D experience? I guess I'm trying to figure out why he would deliberately introduce the need for two different size diagonals, and perhaps different illumination on the two sides.

I can see now how the 6" f/5 would work this way. I bet this will be a killer bino! So are you going to work on this during school breaks or wait it out until you graduate?

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Chopin
Post subject: Re: Big Bins / Binoscope
Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 7:01 pm
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The assymetrical offset (not sure what else to call it) is a solution to get the axes of two 150mm objectives within the IPD of the user. If that doesn't make sense I can do up a sketch which explains the concept much better. The secondary mirrors being different sizes won't make a difference in illumination. One intersects the light cone earlier than the other, so the size difference is just a product of where on the cone it hits. Again, a sketch explains this better. That is for the refractor bino box you see n that link. Yes, a larger secondary will effect the illumination of my newt design, but it should be fairly inconsequential in real world use.

When do I plan to do it? Probably next year...maybe??? Definitly hoping to try for it before graduation. Won't be this year though. I have to rebuild the deck, and promised that I'd revamp the upstairs bathrooms before building another scope. Have to have balance. :grin:

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Erik
Post subject: Re: Big Bins / Binoscope
Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 10:01 am
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Maybe a dumb question but what advantage does a binoscope give over a single telescope with enough aperture to provide a similar level of brightness through a binoviewer attached to the focuser? Does the "stereo effect" of having two separate mirrors and optical trains provide enough of an advantage to overcome the other issues (alignment, cumbersome design etc) of using a binoscope? I think I've only looked through one binoscope at night and I didn't get enough time with it to form an opinion.

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Kawx4d
Post subject: Re: Big Bins / Binoscope
Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 7:24 pm
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Chopin wrote:
The assymetrical offset (not sure what else to call it) is a solution to get the axes of two 150mm objectives within the IPD of the user. If that doesn't make sense I can do up a sketch which explains the concept much better. The secondary mirrors being different sizes won't make a difference in illumination. One intersects the light cone earlier than the other, so the size difference is just a product of where on the cone it hits. Again, a sketch explains this better. That is for the refractor bino box you see n that link. Yes, a larger secondary will effect the illumination of my newt design, but it should be fairly inconsequential in real world use.

When do I plan to do it? Probably next year...maybe??? Definitly hoping to try for it before graduation. Won't be this year though. I have to rebuild the deck, and promised that I'd revamp the upstairs bathrooms before building another scope. Have to have balance. :grin:
Ok that makes sense. No need for a sketch - I can see it in my head. Just didn't think about the IPD / asymmetric relationship. Should have seen that from the photo of the inner box - obviously there were no internal prisms to reroute the light cone. Duh........D.....U......H, Duh. :ugeek:

Yep, better keep that promise so you can continue with future scope projects without backlash! :lol:

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Oh, yeah. The Stifmeister's coming back to Grand Harbor. Deck the halls. Bye-bye, Great Falls. Wipe my a$$ and lick my ba!!s It's Stifler time, baby. Whoo-hoo-hoo. Whoo-hoo-hoo. ~Steve Stifler-American Pie 2 :lol: :lol: :lol:


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Kawx4d
Post subject: Re: Big Bins / Binoscope
Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 7:47 pm
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Erik wrote:
Maybe a dumb question but what advantage does a binoscope give over a single telescope with enough aperture to provide a similar level of brightness through a binoviewer attached to the focuser? Does the "stereo effect" of having two separate mirrors and optical trains provide enough of an advantage to overcome the other issues (alignment, cumbersome design etc) of using a binoscope? I think I've only looked through one binoscope at night and I didn't get enough time with it to form an opinion.
Not a dumb question at all. I wrestled with this for a long time and concluded that cost-wise, it was far more effective to use a BV in a larger scope. Without looking up all of the formulae for binocular summation, I would estimate that your 16", which routes 8" to each eye with a binoviewer will about like 11.5 true binos. My 12.5 would be about 9" bins. The interesting thing about the binoviewer however is that it retains the native resolution of the parent mirror. So 11.5" binos but with the resolution of the 16" mirror.

IIRC with bino summation the easy method is the aperture cut in half multiplied by 1.4. The whole thing is on a pinned link to Ed Z's thread on CN. It's way more involved than that but I think that was the short-cut method to get a reasonable estimate.

Having said all that, for me, there is still something about using a true refractive binocular I can't really articulate. The 4.7" 90* APMs with interchangeable EPs on a good alt-at mount, with a still relatively wide field seem like it would give a perspective the large scope / binoviewer couldn't. Those under dark skies for MW sweeping.......Wow! Of course I could end up disappointed, but I don't really think that would be the case. Won't ever know until I look through one.

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Chopin
Post subject: Re: Big Bins / Binoscope
Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 7:58 pm
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Dumb question?? You're in the right place! Maybe I can offer a dumb answer!! :lol:

Seriously, it's a common inquiry among logical thinking telescope users, but I'll offer a quick comparative example:

In my theoretical 6" Newtonian binoscope I have two mirrors that give approximately 28 in sq. of surface. An 8" scope makes approximately 50 in sq. of surface area, and when split through a binoviewer it closely matches with an effective 25 in sq. per eye. So for all intents and purposes, when the magnification is he same, the image brightness should also be the same.

Here's where things become more obvious. The 6" binoscope has 2" focusers and a 750mm fl. The theoretical 8" will be optimized to compete as fairly as possible. It can't be faster than f5 so that it won't vignette in the binoviewer without an optical corrector, so it has a 1000mm fl. The binoviewer also has 1.25" collets, because we all know the lead time on a Seibert Black Knight is like 20 years (small joke).

So the answer to your question is that the real advantage is found in the available TFOV. The 8" will be limited to 1.6°. Whereas the 6" can pull over 3°. Major difference. Of course the 8" will go deeper on planets when the skies are calm, and doesn't suffer from as many collimation considerations. So they each have their respective uses.

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Chopin
Post subject: Re: Big Bins / Binoscope
Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 8:00 pm
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It took me 15 minutes to post that. Kerry beat me to the punch on some points.

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Erik
Post subject: Re: Big Bins / Binoscope
Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 9:08 pm
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Well. That certainly makes sense. Thanks, you guys- great answers. I must be working too much lately- the TFOV didn't even occur to me. That can be everything in itself in many circumstances so I don't discount that. I guess another plus could be lower cost with an apochtonstic optic that would match the image brightness of a larger and more expensive optic. When you get to 4" or 5" the price really jumps so without pricing them out, I would guess that could be a big advantage.

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Chopin
Post subject: Re: Big Bins / Binoscope
Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 5:14 am
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Cost is definitely another factor, you're right. Until you decide you want two 22mm Naglers! :cheesygrin:

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Kawx4d
Post subject: Re: Big Bins / Binoscope
Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 5:00 pm
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Yes, and Jason's 6" w/2" fcusers should frickn' body slam the refractor units w/only the 1.25" focusers. This is where the true binoscope becomes very interesting. A pair of 22Ns in a 6" bino........nothing no short of "holy shite!" :eeek-jaw drop:

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Oh, yeah. The Stifmeister's coming back to Grand Harbor. Deck the halls. Bye-bye, Great Falls. Wipe my a$$ and lick my ba!!s It's Stifler time, baby. Whoo-hoo-hoo. Whoo-hoo-hoo. ~Steve Stifler-American Pie 2 :lol: :lol: :lol:


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Chopin
Post subject: Re: Big Bins / Binoscope
Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 6:56 pm
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Kawx4d
Post subject: Re: Big Bins / Binoscope
Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2017 4:37 am
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:lol: :lol: :lol:

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Oh, yeah. The Stifmeister's coming back to Grand Harbor. Deck the halls. Bye-bye, Great Falls. Wipe my a$$ and lick my ba!!s It's Stifler time, baby. Whoo-hoo-hoo. Whoo-hoo-hoo. ~Steve Stifler-American Pie 2 :lol: :lol: :lol:


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Erik
Post subject: Re: Big Bins / Binoscope
Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2017 4:40 pm
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:lol:

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SV 80mm ED Nighthawk NG on M1 ALT/AZ
Nikon Prostaff 65mm spotter on Trekpod
Konusvue 20x80 binos/Peterson PipeMount


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